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Stewart Gandolf

Hello, everybody, Stuart Gandolf right here for an additional up to date podcast about digital monitoring applied sciences and HIPAA rules together with class motion lawsuits and every kind of different very form of disconcerting and regarding points that now we have to speak about in our world right this moment.

So right this moment, I’ve invited my colleague, James Corr, who’s Head of Partnerships with Freshpaint. And so, James and I’ve met not too long ago.

We had been working with Freshpaint since final yr as a accomplice. And so right this moment I wished to do an replace.

We have executed podcasts on this. James, as you understand, we have executed eBooks on this, however numerous occurs in a yr on the planet of healthcare.

So, as we wrap up the tip of 2024 and start 2025 right here, I wished to speak about what’s new and present.

So simply because the headline right here for listeners slash readers who aren’t conscious with this again in 2022, so many issues occurred that brought on the workplace civil proper to herald large lawsuits, or I am sorry, usher in large instances, together with the FCC.

FCC’s been concerned workplace civil rights, and there is additionally been class motion lawsuits. And James goes to speak about all that in only a second, however this all comes again to the Fb pixel, Google pixel for Google Analytics and different digital monitoring applied sciences.

So, that is an space that you ought to be conscious of. And so, I’ve requested James right this moment to speak about sort of the historical past of all this, what occurred, the place are we now, the place are we more likely to go.

So welcome, James.

James Corr – Partnerships @ Freshpaint

Yeah, thanks for having me, Stuart. I actually respect it and excited to speak about every part that you simply simply talked about.

Stewart Gandolf

Okay, proper. Yeah, there’s loads there. So ,the massive image, I feel going again to the headline, let’s simply speak about what the principle takeaway individuals ought to have earlier than we even go into the main points.

what’s the, what’s the concise message that you simply’re like, if individuals stroll away with nothing else,  they it will be what

James Corr – Partnerships @ Freshpaint

yeah good spot to start out so if there’s one factor that I would like you to stroll away with right here right this moment it is sort of on the root of every part that we’re speaking about that’s merely that if if you’re a coated entity a healthcare marketer right this moment and you’ve got a Google promoting marketing campaign and meta and google analytics in your web site you might be in a dangerous place because it pertains to protected well being data and sharing that with these third events.

We’ll speak and dive into the entire specifics however I feel that’s the most crucial ingredient that I would like everyone to stroll away with that it’s a concern because it pertains to protected well being data and the HHS or Well being and Human Providers it’s involved about this because it pertains to HIPAA violations so I am not a lawyer none of that is authorized you understand recommendation or something like that however I can let you know that now we have many, many shoppers that agree with our worldview round protected well being data and might help you govern that knowledge between you and a 3rd celebration to assist cut back your threat and defend affected person privateness and let you carry out these advertising and marketing actions so you possibly can alleviate that threat.

Stewart Gandolf

So after I underscore what you simply stated there and it is my dangerous, I need to all the time begin with that disclaimer, not attorneys right here, I am not giving authorized recommendation, I am not certified to present authorized recommendation and even when I used to be, I would not be giving a normal recommendation, proper?

So we propose you communicate to your individual counsel. I’ll within the on the put up itself embrace some hyperlinks from main regulation corporations that past simply, you understand, by it and James’s opinion right here, we need to just be sure you have you are able to do your individual analysis.

So however relatively than learn by authorized briefs, you would possibly need to begin with simply the massive image and attempt to perceive what the heck is occurring.

So I would love you to convey us again to the the golden days of 2022. Yeah. However inform us about how this all started.

James Corr – Partnerships @ Freshpaint

Yeah. Yeah. Joyful to. And also you talked about there’s a few totally different vactors. We will deal with the well being and human companies, which is enforced by the Workplace of Civil Rights or OCR.

So I am going to use these HHS and OCR acronyms just a little bit as we sort of undergo issues. On the finish, we’ll perhaps we’ll come again to a few of the different areas that we hear our prospects are frightened about like class actions, state degree privateness legal guidelines, in the end simply dropping belief within the market and their communities.

These are a few of the different locations that our prospects are generally telling us that they are frightened about along with slash separate from the HHS and HIPAA violation.

However coming again to it and simply sort of focusing in and speaking extra about HIPAA violations and HHS and sort of how we acquired right here.

So, as you talked about, we’ll rewind the historical past books right here and return to many, a few years in the past in June of 2022.

truly The Markup did an enormous investigation into Fb monitoring and this was sort of like an enormous occasion within the trade that acquired hosted and acquired numerous curiosity from varied locations.

So on the time, know, the HHS hadn’t stated something however between that article being revealed after which the tip of the yr there was a bunch of lawsuits filed towards meta towards Northwestern, UCSF, Advocate, Aurora, Duke, a bunch of well being care techniques that had been utilizing Meta to do advertising and marketing that had a bunch of privateness issues.

So on the finish of 2022, I am unable to let you know for sure but it surely’s my perception and Freshpaint’s standpoint that quite a lot of issues however numerous these being the lawsuits that I simply talked about and that The Markup article particularly helped the HHS present their steerage later in 2022.

So December of 2022, the Well being and Human Providers versus places out this steerage, and the important thing factor, the important thing ingredient that I am going to spotlight right here, it is fairly a protracted steerage, however in abstract, the best way that we strategy issues and the priority that exists for healthcare entrepreneurs right this moment boils right down to sharing protected well being data with third events that you simply don’t have a enterprise affiliate settlement with, or BAA.

And a BAA is de facto only a fancy manner of claiming a contractual settlement that with some third celebration that you’ll share delicate knowledge with them, and they will share within the threat, legal responsibility, maintain that knowledge.

So in case you don’t have a BAA with a 3rd celebration that you simply’re sharing knowledge with, instantly it ought to be a priority to you as a healthcare group.

And particularly what the HHS has stated is that these net monitoring applied sciences have entry to an excessive amount of data. They did not say you possibly can’t do promoting, they did not say you possibly can’t perceive what’s taking place in your web site utilizing an analytics device, what they stated is that these third events, these net monitoring applied sciences have entry to an excessive amount of knowledge.

And after I say an excessive amount of knowledge, I am actually speaking about protected well being data. And the best way that the HHS defines it because it pertains to net monitoring applied sciences is that it boils right down to sort of two items of knowledge.

So it is identifiers. that is issues like a reputation, a social safety quantity, amongst different issues like gadget ID or an promoting ID.

So there’s about 18 of that that the HHS has clearly outlined that along with well being data. And well being data was actually the extra talked about matter when this was revealed.

As a result of that is the place issues actually got here to issues sort of modified. And what they only stated is that well being data is now a URL.

It may be the identify of a conversion that you simply’re sending to those third events to say that any person did one thing, it may be a web page title, it could possibly be the title of a video.

All these items are very generally tracked and or accessible from the browser by these net monitoring applied sciences. So to summarize, what the HHS stated in December of 2022 is that there’s a concern because it pertains to HIPAA as a result of these net monitoring applied sciences have entry to protected well being data and we do not have the safeguards in place with these third events.

In order that they have entry to identifiers and well being data collectively and that may be a trigger for concern for us.

Stewart Gandolf

So I need to leap in right here. That interval, as quickly as this got here down with the OCR steerage in December of 2022, we turned conscious as we began on the lookout for analysis, no one knew what to do at that time.

And I name it a nationwide locker room that now we have a relationship with, as a result of earlier than. healthcare, proper? So, and I spoke to one of many key attorneys, and he did not have time to characterize us as a result of he was truly concerned in defending a few of these hospitals, so he could not go on the report.

And, however he did give some actually fascinating insights there. And so, I feel that out of every part he stated, which is all true, the one factor that was, you understand, there is a couple issues that had been perhaps unprecedented at the moment, at the least after I keep in mind from the dialog, one was that the OCR got here out with this steerage with out actually getting enter from the trade.

so, he stated, that is actually unprecedented, and that is shocking. After which the opposite factor, and so he was, you understand, on the time, he was like, you understand, we do not know the place there’s this going, we do not know, however we nonetheless do not actually know, we’ll get to that in a sec.

However the different a part of it that was, the one factor I keep in mind from that decision, particularly, was the concept that the IP handle was protected data of is, or that you can, and, you understand, and the thought of that, and we’ll speak once more about this just a little bit extra just a little bit later.

However, you understand, the individuals within the trade had been saying, wait, an IP handle does not essentially must be a person.

how would anyone discover that in all these items? it wasn’t. It was, there was just a little little bit of, nicely, there was numerous confusion surrounding this matter.

And there was some confusion, too. After which leaping into 2023, this was the subject at numerous the conferences we had been going to in healthcare.

So we went to SISHMD that yr. I feel HJC was the a part of this within the discussion board. These had been, you understand, the subject everyone was speaking about.

And you understand, I would love you to speak about, you understand, throughout that interval in 2023, I imply, some individuals simply stopped monitoring, some individuals stopped advertising and marketing, prefer to develop on that just a little bit extra of this space of deep uncertainty.

And by the best way, throughout this era, simply from our personal facet, we had been doing numerous due diligence, tens of 1000’s of {dollars} of consulting charges, man hours and lawyer charges, to type out, you understand, like who we accomplice with and the way.

So I am going to come again to that. However James, I would love you to- to present some perception on how that yr developed and the vital occasions throughout that interval.

James Corr – Partnerships @ Freshpaint

Yeah, yeah, and I am going to say that your crew’s executed a fantastic job at actually diving in and partnering with us on all of the issues that we’re speaking about right here too, to come back again to 2023.

So a pair issues occurred that yr which can be noteworthy. CCPA, in order that the California Client Safety Act got here into impact in January of 2023.

In order that’s sort of separate from what we’re speaking about, however I feel it is nonetheless noteworthy. It speaks to sort of a few of the state degree privateness legal guidelines that perhaps we’ll come again to right here on the finish of issues separate from HIPAA, it did go into impact in January of 2023.

Coming again to HIPAA and the HHS’s steerage, in addition to, you talked about earlier, the FTC acquired concerned. So in February of that yr, they really began issuing, or had issued, got here to mild.

some fines towards higher well being. I imagine it was within the 5 to $1,000,000-ish vary, in addition to a pair different firms like GoodRx and some others.

The purpose being right here is that the FTC began getting concerned as an enforcement arm for a few of the identical issues that we’re speaking about right here.

Along with that, we additionally noticed the FTC and HHS difficulty a joint privateness warning round net monitoring applied sciences, and most different cyber safety threats in July of 2023, only a additional emphasize every part that they had been seeing and the issues that they had been noticing within the market as nicely.

And final however not least, in 2023, the HHS in addition to FTC each had requested extra funds to really go and implement, examine, and work on these challenges that they noticed.

In order that they requested primarily one thing north of 160 million {dollars} to higher implement, higher examine all of those areas that had been taught.

Nicely, once more, the purpose being right here is that they acknowledge the challenges that exist with applied sciences and what sufferers to be secure, primarily.

Stewart Gandolf

Yeah, I am going to simply convey up the vital truth on FTC. By the best way, James, is, you are the skilled on this.

right me if I make any errors in my level abstract right here, however I am fairly certain I am proper about this.

So, with FTC, the noteworthy half about that’s, you understand, for some firms on the market, we’re not frightened about HIPAA as a result of they are not coated entities.

After all, to be a coated entity, have to just accept insurance coverage. when the FTC will get concerned, okay, it does not matter in case you’re coated in it as a result of it is an entire totally different regulatory physique.

So, that made it simply widened the scope. And I am fairly certain that is why, you understand, for instance, a few of the firms that simply talked about acquired entangled, you do not even must be a coated entity and you continue to must watch out.

So, that was an enormous deal for certain.

James Corr – Partnerships @ Freshpaint

Yeah, nice name out.

Stewart Gandolf

Yeah, and so the, in order that was all taking place. And through this era, Keep in mind, some hospital techniques and well being, you understand, companies would simply say, nicely, we expect it is the percentages of getting, you understand, into hassle or slimmer goes to take versus going to threat it.

We do not have finances for what it’ll do with it. Others shut every part down and overreacted in all probability and took all of the pixels off their web site and, you understand, mainly did nothing.

After which some created their very own customized engineering options. you understand, you guys FreshPaint simply form of appeared over the horizon, like precisely the best time that you simply guys had been beginning late earlier than this ever occurred, however the timing of the market got here to you guys.

So, you understand, we interact with you guys throughout that interval or began working with you guys at that time.

The, I suppose what else is noteworthy about 20, making an attempt to assume again 2023 that that is actually was simply numerous uncertainty round these applied sciences, individuals funding options Freshpaint is one among them.

There’s different methods of doing it. There’s like, you understand, every kind of form of technical workarounds in several methods to strategy this, and that is not my space of experience, however we did analysis this, however we got here again to Freshpaint as a sensible answer.

Let’s speak about 2024, simply we don’t have give everyone a day-to-day blow-by-blow lesson, however so then there was an enormous query across the American Hospital Affiliation and a few hospitals sitting on OCR, and that will trigger extra uncertainty within the market.

nicely, that is all going to only go away. kind of, there is a transient dialogue about that and you understand, what occurred there, then we’ll simply swap to that.

James Corr – Partnerships @ Freshpaint

Yeah, I forgot to say in 2023 is when, I imagine, the middleish of that yr, do not quote me on the date, is when the American Hospital Affiliation or AHA had filed that lawsuit, that can be noteworthy in 2023, then the settlement occurred, and the end result of that case occurred in July of 2024.

actually shortly earlier than I get into the specifics of that case and the end result and the influence that it has on us.

I do additionally need to shortly point out that earlier than that. So in March of 2024, the HHS offered an replace to its steerage, primarily recognizing a few of the issues within the market and making an attempt to make clear their intent and their steerage just a little bit extra detailed and in a manner that will assist {the marketplace} higher perceive what they had been aiming to do.

And I feel it is price noting in that steerage, the HHS truly notes that in case you’re not in a position to obtain a BAA with a 3rd celebration, utilizing an answer like Freshpaint or one other buyer knowledge platform to do a few of the issues that we do, it’s a viable answer for what we’re making an attempt to attain.

So they stunning noteworthy to us that they might point out a product class. Inside their steerage, we felt that was fairly fascinating and offered numerous gumption and and approval of the answer that that we had been placing into {the marketplace}, which is as you possibly can think about fairly thrilling to us.

However coming again to the July 2024 consequence on the AHA lawsuit, so that you’re right, the American Hospital Affiliation introduced a lawsuit primarily that boils right down to difficult whether or not not IP handle assortment actually qualifies as an identifier, and if that ought to be part of the HSS steerage or not.

So the end result is that the AHA gained, they gained the lawsuit towards HHS, and the HHS needed to drop the IP handle assortment piece of their steerage from their bulletin primarily.

data. There’s numerous confusion round this. We’re nonetheless even seeing it right this moment. HIPAA just isn’t gone. There’s nonetheless very a lot a priority because it pertains to net monitoring applied sciences, even with the end result of this case clear.

And so what the influence of that is of the case is that the end result of monitoring IP handle is that you simply observe IP handle alone.

Nonetheless, when you’ve got IP handle along with, say, well being data or different identifiers, that may be a concern. That’s nonetheless a part of the HHS steerage.

So it primarily, now we have vacated the IP handle assortment if you’re doing that alone. There isn’t a concern. However as quickly as you contain another identifiers, like, once more, an promoting ID or gadget ID, that are very generally tracked, along with well being data, you are still in the identical place as we had been, say, in June of 2024, earlier than the end result of this case.

decide as you’re employed after it, the one factor that modified is the gathering of IP handle and IP handle alone is now now not a part of the HHS steerage.

Stewart Gandolf

Okay, so, and there is, you get a, there is a, I am not a lawyer, this can be a very specialised space of the regulation.

And in reality, in our on this web page for posting the podcast, we’ll put up at the least one, perhaps a number of attorneys that folks can name themselves.

That is extremely specialised. This isn’t my experience. I am not going to ever say I am solely sharing what I’ve realized.

However there’s numerous nuances right here if you get into these sorts of issues about, okay, what does it imply if the affected person does this or the prospect does this or what does it imply?

And these are outdoors of my scope. So I’d say, um, I would prefer to, um, so there, I suppose as we’re considering this by, I’d say primary, this is not over.

one, I’d say that. two, there’s in all probability nonetheless going to be extra clarifications down the road. I need to come again to perhaps a conclusion, however earlier than I try this, let’s take a second to speak about, we have already talked about the FTC lawsuit.

We have already talked about OCR. have not talked concerning the class motion lawsuit a part of this, and I have not heard a lot of an replace because the early days.

in fact, there’s, at one level, it appeared like each hospital is getting sued by a category motion lawsuit, whether or not these had any…

What number of of these truly closed and went someplace? do not know, however that was definitely a chilling impact out there.

Are you able to communicate to that in any respect? What occurred? What appears to be taking place now?

James Corr – Partnerships @ Freshpaint

Yeah, I imply, we have seen a few of them have closed. We nonetheless proceed to get prospects that come to us, or frankly, in transparency right here, we’ll speak with a possible buyer, say, months in the past, after which they arrive again to us now, and so they, six months in the past, they advised us, you understand, we’re unsure.

now’s the best time or regardless of the cause could also be and resolve to go on their manner, however now they arrive again to us and we ask them, oh, like, inform me what brings you again and, you understand, they inform us that they are concerned in a category motion or one thing much like that.

So nonetheless very a lot taking place. Sadly, what’s taking place is that, you understand, with know-how, it is very easy to scan a bunch of internet sites.

you can, you can, you understand, with just a little little bit of time and understanding you can construct a chunk of know-how that might go take a look at say tons of or 1000’s or thousands and thousands of internet sites and let you know, you understand, do you’ve got these net monitoring know-how issues in your website?

Sure or no? After which from that, what we’re seeing is that that very same particular person for lack of a greater time period right here in ambulance chaser-esque sort particular person, is then taking that data after which going into {the marketplace} the place these, these organizations exist to offer well being care, discovering prospects,

that, you understand, had been part of, you understand, a affected person at stated group after which creating a category motion off of that indirectly, form or kind.

Paradoxically, we’re even listening to that or have seen that they’ve used Fb advertisements to gather these sufferers after which solicit them as part of the category motion.

So, sure, nonetheless very a lot taking place. It is very a lot a purple flag in your web site that exists. These net monitoring applied sciences and they’re seen from the skin wanting in except you take away them with, you understand, a platform like Freshpaint or others earlier than they will get their knowledge.

Stewart Gandolf

Yeah. And I’d simply additionally add on this, I do not know, when this primary got here out, Fb was the main focus of this.

After which, you understand, someday in 2023, individuals started to recollect making an attempt to recollect now as a result of it is like, it has been some time.

like, all these things has occurred. The main focus was like, wait a minute. It is the identical factor. it isn’t simply Fb or matter, relatively.

It is also, and actually, Any of these little monitoring know-how approaching that?

James Corr – Partnerships @ Freshpaint

Yeah, yeah, I imply, completely. You, you understand, I’ve stated most of it there, primarily any of those third events that you’ve in your web site right this moment, you ought to be asking your self, at the beginning, do I’ve a enterprise affiliate settlement with that?

Sure or no? And if the reply is not any, then the query turns into, okay, what data am I sharing with them?

And oftentimes it contains each well being data, i.e., you understand, an URL and identifier of some form or kind that that equals a value for concern.

So that is what you stated, Meta, Google advertisements, Google Analytics, but it surely’s additionally, you understand, any of the opposite, you understand, platforms, so Bing would fall into the identical class, in addition to Pinterest, LinkedIn, TikTok, all of those are frequent issues that our prospects ask us about.

We’ve integrations for it additionally extends into programmatic promoting. So, issues just like the Commerce Desk or Stack Adapt. all of these sort of all fall into the identical class of, you understand, areas of concern.

Stewart Gandolf

Bought it. After which, um, oh, I need to complicate this extra. Let’s speak about state legal guidelines. So it is taking place there.

James Corr – Partnerships @ Freshpaint

Yeah, there’s, there is a patchwork of state degree privateness legal guidelines. So I’ll, I will not dive into any, any, which one particularly, however simply know that there’s differing ranges of, of regulation dependent upon the state that we’re speaking about.

So for example, um, Washington has as fairly strict legal guidelines, uh, MyHelp, MyData is what they name it.

Um, and it takes a GDPR-esque sort stand in order that that is an information regulation out of Europe, which is de facto all about opting in earlier than you, you measure, entice any knowledge on any consumer.

In order that’s a reasonably distinctive case, and a very, actually strict one. Many of the nation does not have that right this moment, however the level relies upon the state you are in, there’s various the state degree legal guidelines, after which in a few of them, relying upon, once more, who we’re speaking about and what we’re speaking about, a few of them exclude coated entities as a result of they get coated by all the opposite issues that we’re speaking about with respect to HHS.

primarily, it is like in case you’re speaking about HIPAA and you are a coated entity, you oftentimes truly generally fall out of those rules and fall into every part that we have already talked about.

So there’s even some questions round how that works, particularly for suppliers that work throughout a number of states, you are going to must play into no matter essentially the most strict set of knowledge privateness legal guidelines that exist inside your, wherever you serve.

Stewart Gandolf

In order that’s, the truth is, I spoke towards one other lawyer on this class not too long ago, and that was, it is fascinating, you understand, once more, I am not giving authorized recommendation, you understand, decoding a fast name for the lawyer we work with, however the, you understand, this can be a fairly frequent drawback when you’ve got state legal guidelines and federal legal guidelines and totally different companies.

these all, you understand, form of have totally different guidelines and the way is it sensible for any enterprise to actually adapt.

And so it is fascinating that it might find yourself not giving guarantees right here, we’re simply deferring, nicely, if it is OCR, we’re okay.

And in order that’s, however that is not all outlined. that is, you understand, it is a complicated morass and it is irritating. And you understand, I suppose as we wrap up right here, with out stepping into, you understand, the, you understand, there’s, we may speak about this for hours, not, it is a enjoyable matter, but it surely’s one thing we should always concentrate on.

The, I’d say that, after we talked to purchasers about this, as I discussed at first right here, we’re not attorneys, we’re not consultants at like all these nuances of legal guidelines, we’re undoubtedly, you understand, digital markers, we definitely perceive that.

And so we have determined to take the conservative route and discover a accomplice, on this case, it is Freshpaint, clearly.

And never that I am like in Freshpaint right here, I am simply considering there’s different methods of doing this. However for us it was the sensible answer. And there is totally different B ranges and there is clearly the scope’s totally different, the charges are totally different.

And so in case you’re on this matter and dealing to buzz, we have some partnership with Freshpaint. can I assist information you in a few of the choices there.

However I’d simply choose this as an insurance coverage coverage. imply, objectively, that is what it comes right down to. us, as an company, primary, I am a conservative man, hate taking pointless threat.

I take threat in loads of locations, however not on this, as a result of it will be a catastrophic occasion for our purchasers and for our company.

This turns into an enormous, large difficulty. So we strongly advise individuals to know this matter, make their very own choices, speak to their counsel.

Once more, that is why you are able to do this. Let’s simply make these fairly sketchable issues. Ah, you are simply making an attempt to promote us Freshpaint.

Like, I do not get a fee. gosh. Like, that is not like this can be a vow. Like, I am a, you understand, I like to consider myself as a really knowledgeable thought chief in his face.

I have been doing this for a very long time, and that is simply an space that we felt like we needed to discover a threat mitigation technique, and it has been fascinating is, you understand, form of throwing some feedback in right here and I would love you to reply.

Discuss to a nursing house, or I am sorry, I’ve senior dwelling classes at one among their expert nursing amenities, however senior dwelling enterprise, there’s a few days in the past now.

And I believed it was actually fascinating we share this with each consumer as we’re onboarding, is that this one thing we’re recommending to do and what have been, you understand, all of this.

And I stated, you understand what Stewart, we need to transfer ahead the advertising and marketing and the good information is we are able to speak to our crew internally, this could be not from the advertising and marketing finances, the chance mitigation budgets they really have a finances for.

There are some nursing amenities that they’ve that was like, there’s loads of threat mitigation elements. That was a very fascinating perception, like, yeah, why is that popping out of the advertising and marketing finances you guys have threat mitigation in every single place you’ve got threat mitigation for insurance coverage your threat mitigation for, you understand, authorized points.

And so to me. It is like, my life is difficult sufficient about an sudden letter, so I do not know if in case you have any feedback on that, however that is why we selected the conservative route.

We simply need to be sure that our purchasers are totally warned, and actually everyone, if they do not be a consumer of ours, to at the least know that this can be a factor and to remain and perceive it and provides it the due diligence that it requires.

James Corr – Partnerships @ Freshpaint

Yeah, no, I utterly agree. After all, I am a bit biased, know, I am working at Freshpaint, however there’s quite a lot of causes that their prospects select Freshpaint versus different options within the market.

We deal with healthcare, that’s our solely focus, and it is a broad spectrum inside healthcare, however we do focus fully on healthcare each day.

That is what we eat, sleep, and breathe at Freshpaint, and solely what we’re involved about. To your level earlier, we have executed some due diligence on our facet, and I am going to be sure that we embrace a few of the content material that now we have from a few of the attorneys that we have talked to.

Really, now we have a webinar, and a one-pager from a dialog that we had in early 2024, from David E. Drinker, after which we additionally did one in late 2024, after the AHA lawsuit settlement with Jennifer Plank over at Austin & Hen.

So I am blissful to verify we embrace these as nicely. Do not simply take our phrase for it. You’ll be able to hear from some authorized professionals, their interpretation of the issues that we’re speaking about right here, how these issues apply, and listen to just a little bit extra perhaps about Freshpaint and what it’s that we do and why we slot in and we really feel we’re one of many strongest within the trade as nicely.

Stewart Gandolf

Yeah, I can truly contact on that. Like, what’s, know, with out making it to an advert, clearly, however like, your strategy is, and you understand, why you simply, you understand, minute on that to assist our listeners.

James Corr – Partnerships @ Freshpaint

So, a few issues, blissful to develop on that. in fact, my crew shall be very happy you had been excited to dive into it with anybody who’s extra individually.

However for functions of this, I feel there’s a few issues price noting right here. So I already talked about that we targeted fully on healthcare versus numerous different platforms which can be extra trade agnostic.

So in and of itself, like every part that we do focuses on healthcare and coated entities and the issues and challenges that they face.

So with that in thoughts, there are a pair areas the place we’re totally different than a few of the different issues that you can purpose to perform compliance within the trade.

So primary, I imply, simply desk stakes, design, enterprise affiliate agreements with all of our prospects to gather all of this knowledge.

Quantity two, you are going to take away all of these monitoring applied sciences out of your web site and change it with Freshpaint.

So that you’re now not going to have any of these purple flags that exist in your websites. And we purpose-built the entire server facet integrations or primarily the best way that we ship knowledge to those third events to facilitate the wants of our healthcare entrepreneurs.

So meaning each, you understand, satisfying privateness issues, but additionally ensuring that the information and the best way that we’re delivering that knowledge to the third celebration goes to let you accomplish the targets that you really want.

Because it pertains to say Google Analytics 4, for example, that may be a specific one the place now we have spent numerous time effort and power truly constructing our personal bridge between us and them to make sure that the information that you simply see in GA4, you understand, pre- and post-deployment and Freshpaint, appears to be like nearly equivalent.

There’s actually no drop off between the 2. After which the final two issues that I am going to shortly point out right here, primary is that we strategy every part from what we seek advice from as secure by default strategy.

So even in case you arrange your account and configure every part inside Freshpaint, till you truly decide in and explicitly outline the information that you simply need to share by a visible interface with a 3rd celebration, that is not going to get shared with them.

So there is not any engineering or improvement concerned in that. It is a very marketer and albeit authorized pleasant interface. Our purpose is to take away improvement help or improvement want.

So we don’t strategy issues from a code perspective. It is very low to no code. After which now we have options inside the platform that let you set these issues up simply and perceive them, but additionally keep and confirm that they are working in the best way that you simply had meant.

So it isn’t simply set it up and cross your fingers and hope every part appears to be like good. We’ve the flexibility to confirm and see that knowledge because it flows by the platform.

And you may audit that and get again logs and all that form of good things. The very last thing I am going to point out about Freshpaint is that we have talked loads about right this moment about governing the information between you and a few third celebration.

Along with that, we even have options that exist to assist in different areas because it pertains to affected person privateness. So for example, a few of our prospects are involved about Google Maps and the information that it has entry to when it is embedded in your web site and it is the identical story for YouTube and Vimeo.

So embedded video. So now we have options and merchandise inside our platform that may let you change say Google Maps with Freshpaint Maps and identical story for say Google and YouTube, you possibly can change that with Freshpaint Video.

And something for translations in your web site. And final however not least, we even have options that let you audit the online trackers that exist in your website after which monitor and handle them going ahead.

In order that you do not have to be the one that’s continually checking and guaranteeing that your revenue purchasers.

So primarily the best way I like to explain it’s it is vital to get a deal with on what threat exists right this moment after which maintain that.

However it’s simply as vital that in six months from now a yr from now, 5 years from now, that if one thing had been to alter and your threat modifications in your web site, that one thing is added, maybe you did not learn about it, a accomplice provides it, a vendor provides it, and you’ll not learn about it, however in the end you may be the one held accountable.

We’ve a set of options that enable you handle that, and we’ll warn you if we discover one thing new, so it continually screens these issues in your web site as nicely.

Stewart Gandolf

Okay, superior. Nicely, James, that was loads. Okay, for our viewers, you simply got here away with the massive image, which once more, I’d simply, simply the best way we began, this can be a matter that you simply simply have to turn out to be conscious of, it is actual, it is on the market.

You realize, you may must work along with your council and government crew to, you understand, weigh your choices and, however I’d simply urge you to take it very severely.

There’s loads there about FTC, OCR, class motion lawsuits and state legal guidelines multi function dialog. it is a quagmire. I did not make it this up.

This is not my fault. I promise. I’ve nothing to do with this. we, once more, for our firm, Healthcare Success, we have been, we’re very cautious.

We’ve HIPAA trainings internally. We do work with BAA platforms and we’re all the time ensuring after we discover now we have HIPAA trainings yearly.

We return and overview periodically to verify issues are nonetheless taking place the best path. As a result of it is loads.

It is easy. We’re all human, proper? So anyway, I respect your time, James. That was nice. We’ll in all probability speak once more ultimately of subsequent yr.

However as we sit up for 2025, I feel the best way is fairly clear for the foreseeable future. AHA lawsuit, I feel, was just a little complicated and pause individuals, however now it is sort of like in case you’re this severely, identical to you stated, it is nonetheless a problem.

There is a new administration coming in. I feel it’s going to be fascinating to see how that impacts issues. However once more, I all the time simply really feel like I am taking the insurance coverage path to be secure.

So nice. Good speaking to you.

James Corr – Partnerships @ Freshpaint

Thanks. Superior. Thanks, Stewart.

Learn the Full Transcript

Stewart Gandolf

Hello, everybody, Stuart Gandolf right here for an additional up to date podcast about digital monitoring applied sciences and HIPAA rules together with class motion lawsuits and every kind of different very form of disconcerting and regarding points that now we have to speak about in our world right this moment.

So right this moment, I’ve invited my colleague, James Corr, who’s Head of Partnerships with Freshpaint. And so, James and I’ve met not too long ago.

We had been working with Freshpaint since final yr as a accomplice. And so right this moment I wished to do an replace.

We have executed podcasts on this. James, as you understand, we have executed eBooks on this, however numerous occurs in a yr on the planet of healthcare.

So, as we wrap up the tip of 2024 and start 2025 right here, I wished to speak about what’s new and present.

So simply because the headline right here for listeners slash readers who aren’t conscious with this again in 2022, so many issues occurred that brought on the workplace civil proper to herald large lawsuits, or I am sorry, usher in large instances, together with the FCC.

FCC’s been concerned workplace civil rights, and there is additionally been class motion lawsuits. And James goes to speak about all that in only a second, however this all comes again to the Fb pixel, Google pixel for Google Analytics and different digital monitoring applied sciences.

So, that is an space that you ought to be conscious of. And so, I’ve requested James right this moment to speak about sort of the historical past of all this, what occurred, the place are we now, the place are we more likely to go.

So welcome, James.

James Corr – Partnerships @ Freshpaint

Yeah, thanks for having me, Stuart. I actually respect it and excited to speak about every part that you simply simply talked about.

Stewart Gandolf

Okay, proper. Yeah, there’s loads there. So ,the massive image, I feel going again to the headline, let’s simply speak about what the principle takeaway individuals ought to have earlier than we even go into the main points.

what’s the, what’s the concise message that you simply’re like, if individuals stroll away with nothing else,  they it will be what

James Corr – Partnerships @ Freshpaint

yeah good spot to start out so if there’s one factor that I would like you to stroll away with right here right this moment it is sort of on the root of every part that we’re speaking about that’s merely that if if you’re a coated entity a healthcare marketer right this moment and you’ve got a Google promoting marketing campaign and meta and google analytics in your web site you might be in a dangerous place because it pertains to protected well being data and sharing that with these third events.

We’ll speak and dive into the entire specifics however I feel that’s the most crucial ingredient that I would like everyone to stroll away with that it’s a concern because it pertains to protected well being data and the HHS or Well being and Human Providers it’s involved about this because it pertains to HIPAA violations so I am not a lawyer none of that is authorized you understand recommendation or something like that however I can let you know that now we have many, many shoppers that agree with our worldview round protected well being data and might help you govern that knowledge between you and a 3rd celebration to assist cut back your threat and defend affected person privateness and let you carry out these advertising and marketing actions so you possibly can alleviate that threat.

Stewart Gandolf

So after I underscore what you simply stated there and it is my dangerous, I need to all the time begin with that disclaimer, not attorneys right here, I am not giving authorized recommendation, I am not certified to present authorized recommendation and even when I used to be, I would not be giving a normal recommendation, proper?

So we propose you communicate to your individual counsel. I’ll within the on the put up itself embrace some hyperlinks from main regulation corporations that past simply, you understand, by it and James’s opinion right here, we need to just be sure you have you are able to do your individual analysis.

So however relatively than learn by authorized briefs, you would possibly need to begin with simply the massive image and attempt to perceive what the heck is occurring.

So I would love you to convey us again to the the golden days of 2022. Yeah. However inform us about how this all started.

James Corr – Partnerships @ Freshpaint

Yeah. Yeah. Joyful to. And also you talked about there’s a few totally different vactors. We will deal with the well being and human companies, which is enforced by the Workplace of Civil Rights or OCR.

So I am going to use these HHS and OCR acronyms just a little bit as we sort of undergo issues. On the finish, we’ll perhaps we’ll come again to a few of the different areas that we hear our prospects are frightened about like class actions, state degree privateness legal guidelines, in the end simply dropping belief within the market and their communities.

These are a few of the different locations that our prospects are generally telling us that they are frightened about along with slash separate from the HHS and HIPAA violation.

However coming again to it and simply sort of focusing in and speaking extra about HIPAA violations and HHS and sort of how we acquired right here.

So, as you talked about, we’ll rewind the historical past books right here and return to many, a few years in the past in June of 2022.

truly The Markup did an enormous investigation into Fb monitoring and this was sort of like an enormous occasion within the trade that acquired hosted and acquired numerous curiosity from varied locations.

So on the time, know, the HHS hadn’t stated something however between that article being revealed after which the tip of the yr there was a bunch of lawsuits filed towards meta towards Northwestern, UCSF, Advocate, Aurora, Duke, a bunch of well being care techniques that had been utilizing Meta to do advertising and marketing that had a bunch of privateness issues.

So on the finish of 2022, I am unable to let you know for sure but it surely’s my perception and Freshpaint’s standpoint that quite a lot of issues however numerous these being the lawsuits that I simply talked about and that The Markup article particularly helped the HHS present their steerage later in 2022.

So December of 2022, the Well being and Human Providers versus places out this steerage, and the important thing factor, the important thing ingredient that I am going to spotlight right here, it is fairly a protracted steerage, however in abstract, the best way that we strategy issues and the priority that exists for healthcare entrepreneurs right this moment boils right down to sharing protected well being data with third events that you simply don’t have a enterprise affiliate settlement with, or BAA.

And a BAA is de facto only a fancy manner of claiming a contractual settlement that with some third celebration that you’ll share delicate knowledge with them, and they will share within the threat, legal responsibility, maintain that knowledge.

So in case you don’t have a BAA with a 3rd celebration that you simply’re sharing knowledge with, instantly it ought to be a priority to you as a healthcare group.

And particularly what the HHS has stated is that these net monitoring applied sciences have entry to an excessive amount of data. They did not say you possibly can’t do promoting, they did not say you possibly can’t perceive what’s taking place in your web site utilizing an analytics device, what they stated is that these third events, these net monitoring applied sciences have entry to an excessive amount of knowledge.

And after I say an excessive amount of knowledge, I am actually speaking about protected well being data. And the best way that the HHS defines it because it pertains to net monitoring applied sciences is that it boils right down to sort of two items of knowledge.

So it is identifiers. that is issues like a reputation, a social safety quantity, amongst different issues like gadget ID or an promoting ID.

So there’s about 18 of that that the HHS has clearly outlined that along with well being data. And well being data was actually the extra talked about matter when this was revealed.

As a result of that is the place issues actually got here to issues sort of modified. And what they only stated is that well being data is now a URL.

It may be the identify of a conversion that you simply’re sending to those third events to say that any person did one thing, it may be a web page title, it could possibly be the title of a video.

All these items are very generally tracked and or accessible from the browser by these net monitoring applied sciences. So to summarize, what the HHS stated in December of 2022 is that there’s a concern because it pertains to HIPAA as a result of these net monitoring applied sciences have entry to protected well being data and we do not have the safeguards in place with these third events.

In order that they have entry to identifiers and well being data collectively and that may be a trigger for concern for us.

Stewart Gandolf

So I need to leap in right here. That interval, as quickly as this got here down with the OCR steerage in December of 2022, we turned conscious as we began on the lookout for analysis, no one knew what to do at that time.

And I name it a nationwide locker room that now we have a relationship with, as a result of earlier than. healthcare, proper? So, and I spoke to one of many key attorneys, and he did not have time to characterize us as a result of he was truly concerned in defending a few of these hospitals, so he could not go on the report.

And, however he did give some actually fascinating insights there. And so, I feel that out of every part he stated, which is all true, the one factor that was, you understand, there is a couple issues that had been perhaps unprecedented at the moment, at the least after I keep in mind from the dialog, one was that the OCR got here out with this steerage with out actually getting enter from the trade.

so, he stated, that is actually unprecedented, and that is shocking. After which the opposite factor, and so he was, you understand, on the time, he was like, you understand, we do not know the place there’s this going, we do not know, however we nonetheless do not actually know, we’ll get to that in a sec.

However the different a part of it that was, the one factor I keep in mind from that decision, particularly, was the concept that the IP handle was protected data of is, or that you can, and, you understand, and the thought of that, and we’ll speak once more about this just a little bit extra just a little bit later.

However, you understand, the individuals within the trade had been saying, wait, an IP handle does not essentially must be a person.

how would anyone discover that in all these items? it wasn’t. It was, there was just a little little bit of, nicely, there was numerous confusion surrounding this matter.

And there was some confusion, too. After which leaping into 2023, this was the subject at numerous the conferences we had been going to in healthcare.

So we went to SISHMD that yr. I feel HJC was the a part of this within the discussion board. These had been, you understand, the subject everyone was speaking about.

And you understand, I would love you to speak about, you understand, throughout that interval in 2023, I imply, some individuals simply stopped monitoring, some individuals stopped advertising and marketing, prefer to develop on that just a little bit extra of this space of deep uncertainty.

And by the best way, throughout this era, simply from our personal facet, we had been doing numerous due diligence, tens of 1000’s of {dollars} of consulting charges, man hours and lawyer charges, to type out, you understand, like who we accomplice with and the way.

So I am going to come again to that. However James, I would love you to- to present some perception on how that yr developed and the vital occasions throughout that interval.

James Corr – Partnerships @ Freshpaint

Yeah, yeah, and I am going to say that your crew’s executed a fantastic job at actually diving in and partnering with us on all of the issues that we’re speaking about right here too, to come back again to 2023.

So a pair issues occurred that yr which can be noteworthy. CCPA, in order that the California Client Safety Act got here into impact in January of 2023.

In order that’s sort of separate from what we’re speaking about, however I feel it is nonetheless noteworthy. It speaks to sort of a few of the state degree privateness legal guidelines that perhaps we’ll come again to right here on the finish of issues separate from HIPAA, it did go into impact in January of 2023.

Coming again to HIPAA and the HHS’s steerage, in addition to, you talked about earlier, the FTC acquired concerned. So in February of that yr, they really began issuing, or had issued, got here to mild.

some fines towards higher well being. I imagine it was within the 5 to $1,000,000-ish vary, in addition to a pair different firms like GoodRx and some others.

The purpose being right here is that the FTC began getting concerned as an enforcement arm for a few of the identical issues that we’re speaking about right here.

Along with that, we additionally noticed the FTC and HHS difficulty a joint privateness warning round net monitoring applied sciences, and most different cyber safety threats in July of 2023, only a additional emphasize every part that they had been seeing and the issues that they had been noticing within the market as nicely.

And final however not least, in 2023, the HHS in addition to FTC each had requested extra funds to really go and implement, examine, and work on these challenges that they noticed.

In order that they requested primarily one thing north of 160 million {dollars} to higher implement, higher examine all of those areas that had been taught.

Nicely, once more, the purpose being right here is that they acknowledge the challenges that exist with applied sciences and what sufferers to be secure, primarily.

Stewart Gandolf

Yeah, I am going to simply convey up the vital truth on FTC. By the best way, James, is, you are the skilled on this.

right me if I make any errors in my level abstract right here, however I am fairly certain I am proper about this.

So, with FTC, the noteworthy half about that’s, you understand, for some firms on the market, we’re not frightened about HIPAA as a result of they are not coated entities.

After all, to be a coated entity, have to just accept insurance coverage. when the FTC will get concerned, okay, it does not matter in case you’re coated in it as a result of it is an entire totally different regulatory physique.

So, that made it simply widened the scope. And I am fairly certain that is why, you understand, for instance, a few of the firms that simply talked about acquired entangled, you do not even must be a coated entity and you continue to must watch out.

So, that was an enormous deal for certain.

James Corr – Partnerships @ Freshpaint

Yeah, nice name out.

Stewart Gandolf

Yeah, and so the, in order that was all taking place. And through this era, Keep in mind, some hospital techniques and well being, you understand, companies would simply say, nicely, we expect it is the percentages of getting, you understand, into hassle or slimmer goes to take versus going to threat it.

We do not have finances for what it’ll do with it. Others shut every part down and overreacted in all probability and took all of the pixels off their web site and, you understand, mainly did nothing.

After which some created their very own customized engineering options. you understand, you guys FreshPaint simply form of appeared over the horizon, like precisely the best time that you simply guys had been beginning late earlier than this ever occurred, however the timing of the market got here to you guys.

So, you understand, we interact with you guys throughout that interval or began working with you guys at that time.

The, I suppose what else is noteworthy about 20, making an attempt to assume again 2023 that that is actually was simply numerous uncertainty round these applied sciences, individuals funding options Freshpaint is one among them.

There’s different methods of doing it. There’s like, you understand, every kind of form of technical workarounds in several methods to strategy this, and that is not my space of experience, however we did analysis this, however we got here again to Freshpaint as a sensible answer.

Let’s speak about 2024, simply we don’t have give everyone a day-to-day blow-by-blow lesson, however so then there was an enormous query across the American Hospital Affiliation and a few hospitals sitting on OCR, and that will trigger extra uncertainty within the market.

nicely, that is all going to only go away. kind of, there is a transient dialogue about that and you understand, what occurred there, then we’ll simply swap to that.

James Corr – Partnerships @ Freshpaint

Yeah, I forgot to say in 2023 is when, I imagine, the middleish of that yr, do not quote me on the date, is when the American Hospital Affiliation or AHA had filed that lawsuit, that can be noteworthy in 2023, then the settlement occurred, and the end result of that case occurred in July of 2024.

actually shortly earlier than I get into the specifics of that case and the end result and the influence that it has on us.

I do additionally need to shortly point out that earlier than that. So in March of 2024, the HHS offered an replace to its steerage, primarily recognizing a few of the issues within the market and making an attempt to make clear their intent and their steerage just a little bit extra detailed and in a manner that will assist {the marketplace} higher perceive what they had been aiming to do.

And I feel it is price noting in that steerage, the HHS truly notes that in case you’re not in a position to obtain a BAA with a 3rd celebration, utilizing an answer like Freshpaint or one other buyer knowledge platform to do a few of the issues that we do, it’s a viable answer for what we’re making an attempt to attain.

So they stunning noteworthy to us that they might point out a product class. Inside their steerage, we felt that was fairly fascinating and offered numerous gumption and and approval of the answer that that we had been placing into {the marketplace}, which is as you possibly can think about fairly thrilling to us.

However coming again to the July 2024 consequence on the AHA lawsuit, so that you’re right, the American Hospital Affiliation introduced a lawsuit primarily that boils right down to difficult whether or not not IP handle assortment actually qualifies as an identifier, and if that ought to be part of the HSS steerage or not.

So the end result is that the AHA gained, they gained the lawsuit towards HHS, and the HHS needed to drop the IP handle assortment piece of their steerage from their bulletin primarily.

data. There’s numerous confusion round this. We’re nonetheless even seeing it right this moment. HIPAA just isn’t gone. There’s nonetheless very a lot a priority because it pertains to net monitoring applied sciences, even with the end result of this case clear.

And so what the influence of that is of the case is that the end result of monitoring IP handle is that you simply observe IP handle alone.

Nonetheless, when you’ve got IP handle along with, say, well being data or different identifiers, that may be a concern. That’s nonetheless a part of the HHS steerage.

So it primarily, now we have vacated the IP handle assortment if you’re doing that alone. There isn’t a concern. However as quickly as you contain another identifiers, like, once more, an promoting ID or gadget ID, that are very generally tracked, along with well being data, you are still in the identical place as we had been, say, in June of 2024, earlier than the end result of this case.

decide as you’re employed after it, the one factor that modified is the gathering of IP handle and IP handle alone is now now not a part of the HHS steerage.

Stewart Gandolf

Okay, so, and there is, you get a, there is a, I am not a lawyer, this can be a very specialised space of the regulation.

And in reality, in our on this web page for posting the podcast, we’ll put up at the least one, perhaps a number of attorneys that folks can name themselves.

That is extremely specialised. This isn’t my experience. I am not going to ever say I am solely sharing what I’ve realized.

However there’s numerous nuances right here if you get into these sorts of issues about, okay, what does it imply if the affected person does this or the prospect does this or what does it imply?

And these are outdoors of my scope. So I’d say, um, I would prefer to, um, so there, I suppose as we’re considering this by, I’d say primary, this is not over.

one, I’d say that. two, there’s in all probability nonetheless going to be extra clarifications down the road. I need to come again to perhaps a conclusion, however earlier than I try this, let’s take a second to speak about, we have already talked about the FTC lawsuit.

We have already talked about OCR. have not talked concerning the class motion lawsuit a part of this, and I have not heard a lot of an replace because the early days.

in fact, there’s, at one level, it appeared like each hospital is getting sued by a category motion lawsuit, whether or not these had any…

What number of of these truly closed and went someplace? do not know, however that was definitely a chilling impact out there.

Are you able to communicate to that in any respect? What occurred? What appears to be taking place now?

James Corr – Partnerships @ Freshpaint

Yeah, I imply, we have seen a few of them have closed. We nonetheless proceed to get prospects that come to us, or frankly, in transparency right here, we’ll speak with a possible buyer, say, months in the past, after which they arrive again to us now, and so they, six months in the past, they advised us, you understand, we’re unsure.

now’s the best time or regardless of the cause could also be and resolve to go on their manner, however now they arrive again to us and we ask them, oh, like, inform me what brings you again and, you understand, they inform us that they are concerned in a category motion or one thing much like that.

So nonetheless very a lot taking place. Sadly, what’s taking place is that, you understand, with know-how, it is very easy to scan a bunch of internet sites.

you can, you can, you understand, with just a little little bit of time and understanding you can construct a chunk of know-how that might go take a look at say tons of or 1000’s or thousands and thousands of internet sites and let you know, you understand, do you’ve got these net monitoring know-how issues in your website?

Sure or no? After which from that, what we’re seeing is that that very same particular person for lack of a greater time period right here in ambulance chaser-esque sort particular person, is then taking that data after which going into {the marketplace} the place these, these organizations exist to offer well being care, discovering prospects,

that, you understand, had been part of, you understand, a affected person at stated group after which creating a category motion off of that indirectly, form or kind.

Paradoxically, we’re even listening to that or have seen that they’ve used Fb advertisements to gather these sufferers after which solicit them as part of the category motion.

So, sure, nonetheless very a lot taking place. It is very a lot a purple flag in your web site that exists. These net monitoring applied sciences and they’re seen from the skin wanting in except you take away them with, you understand, a platform like Freshpaint or others earlier than they will get their knowledge.

Stewart Gandolf

Yeah. And I’d simply additionally add on this, I do not know, when this primary got here out, Fb was the main focus of this.

After which, you understand, someday in 2023, individuals started to recollect making an attempt to recollect now as a result of it is like, it has been some time.

like, all these things has occurred. The main focus was like, wait a minute. It is the identical factor. it isn’t simply Fb or matter, relatively.

It is also, and actually, Any of these little monitoring know-how approaching that?

James Corr – Partnerships @ Freshpaint

Yeah, yeah, I imply, completely. You, you understand, I’ve stated most of it there, primarily any of those third events that you’ve in your web site right this moment, you ought to be asking your self, at the beginning, do I’ve a enterprise affiliate settlement with that?

Sure or no? And if the reply is not any, then the query turns into, okay, what data am I sharing with them?

And oftentimes it contains each well being data, i.e., you understand, an URL and identifier of some form or kind that that equals a value for concern.

So that is what you stated, Meta, Google advertisements, Google Analytics, but it surely’s additionally, you understand, any of the opposite, you understand, platforms, so Bing would fall into the identical class, in addition to Pinterest, LinkedIn, TikTok, all of those are frequent issues that our prospects ask us about.

We’ve integrations for it additionally extends into programmatic promoting. So, issues just like the Commerce Desk or Stack Adapt. all of these sort of all fall into the identical class of, you understand, areas of concern.

Stewart Gandolf

Bought it. After which, um, oh, I need to complicate this extra. Let’s speak about state legal guidelines. So it is taking place there.

James Corr – Partnerships @ Freshpaint

Yeah, there’s, there is a patchwork of state degree privateness legal guidelines. So I’ll, I will not dive into any, any, which one particularly, however simply know that there’s differing ranges of, of regulation dependent upon the state that we’re speaking about.

So for example, um, Washington has as fairly strict legal guidelines, uh, MyHelp, MyData is what they name it.

Um, and it takes a GDPR-esque sort stand in order that that is an information regulation out of Europe, which is de facto all about opting in earlier than you, you measure, entice any knowledge on any consumer.

In order that’s a reasonably distinctive case, and a very, actually strict one. Many of the nation does not have that right this moment, however the level relies upon the state you are in, there’s various the state degree legal guidelines, after which in a few of them, relying upon, once more, who we’re speaking about and what we’re speaking about, a few of them exclude coated entities as a result of they get coated by all the opposite issues that we’re speaking about with respect to HHS.

primarily, it is like in case you’re speaking about HIPAA and you are a coated entity, you oftentimes truly generally fall out of those rules and fall into every part that we have already talked about.

So there’s even some questions round how that works, particularly for suppliers that work throughout a number of states, you are going to must play into no matter essentially the most strict set of knowledge privateness legal guidelines that exist inside your, wherever you serve.

Stewart Gandolf

In order that’s, the truth is, I spoke towards one other lawyer on this class not too long ago, and that was, it is fascinating, you understand, once more, I am not giving authorized recommendation, you understand, decoding a fast name for the lawyer we work with, however the, you understand, this can be a fairly frequent drawback when you’ve got state legal guidelines and federal legal guidelines and totally different companies.

these all, you understand, form of have totally different guidelines and the way is it sensible for any enterprise to actually adapt.

And so it is fascinating that it might find yourself not giving guarantees right here, we’re simply deferring, nicely, if it is OCR, we’re okay.

And in order that’s, however that is not all outlined. that is, you understand, it is a complicated morass and it is irritating. And you understand, I suppose as we wrap up right here, with out stepping into, you understand, the, you understand, there’s, we may speak about this for hours, not, it is a enjoyable matter, but it surely’s one thing we should always concentrate on.

The, I’d say that, after we talked to purchasers about this, as I discussed at first right here, we’re not attorneys, we’re not consultants at like all these nuances of legal guidelines, we’re undoubtedly, you understand, digital markers, we definitely perceive that.

And so we have determined to take the conservative route and discover a accomplice, on this case, it is Freshpaint, clearly.

And never that I am like in Freshpaint right here, I am simply considering there’s different methods of doing this. However for us it was the sensible answer. And there is totally different B ranges and there is clearly the scope’s totally different, the charges are totally different.

And so in case you’re on this matter and dealing to buzz, we have some partnership with Freshpaint. can I assist information you in a few of the choices there.

However I’d simply choose this as an insurance coverage coverage. imply, objectively, that is what it comes right down to. us, as an company, primary, I am a conservative man, hate taking pointless threat.

I take threat in loads of locations, however not on this, as a result of it will be a catastrophic occasion for our purchasers and for our company.

This turns into an enormous, large difficulty. So we strongly advise individuals to know this matter, make their very own choices, speak to their counsel.

Once more, that is why you are able to do this. Let’s simply make these fairly sketchable issues. Ah, you are simply making an attempt to promote us Freshpaint.

Like, I do not get a fee. gosh. Like, that is not like this can be a vow. Like, I am a, you understand, I like to consider myself as a really knowledgeable thought chief in his face.

I have been doing this for a very long time, and that is simply an space that we felt like we needed to discover a threat mitigation technique, and it has been fascinating is, you understand, form of throwing some feedback in right here and I would love you to reply.

Discuss to a nursing house, or I am sorry, I’ve senior dwelling classes at one among their expert nursing amenities, however senior dwelling enterprise, there’s a few days in the past now.

And I believed it was actually fascinating we share this with each consumer as we’re onboarding, is that this one thing we’re recommending to do and what have been, you understand, all of this.

And I stated, you understand what Stewart, we need to transfer ahead the advertising and marketing and the good information is we are able to speak to our crew internally, this could be not from the advertising and marketing finances, the chance mitigation budgets they really have a finances for.

There are some nursing amenities that they’ve that was like, there’s loads of threat mitigation elements. That was a very fascinating perception, like, yeah, why is that popping out of the advertising and marketing finances you guys have threat mitigation in every single place you’ve got threat mitigation for insurance coverage your threat mitigation for, you understand, authorized points.

And so to me. It is like, my life is difficult sufficient about an sudden letter, so I do not know if in case you have any feedback on that, however that is why we selected the conservative route.

We simply need to be sure that our purchasers are totally warned, and actually everyone, if they do not be a consumer of ours, to at the least know that this can be a factor and to remain and perceive it and provides it the due diligence that it requires.

James Corr – Partnerships @ Freshpaint

Yeah, no, I utterly agree. After all, I am a bit biased, know, I am working at Freshpaint, however there’s quite a lot of causes that their prospects select Freshpaint versus different options within the market.

We deal with healthcare, that’s our solely focus, and it is a broad spectrum inside healthcare, however we do focus fully on healthcare each day.

That is what we eat, sleep, and breathe at Freshpaint, and solely what we’re involved about. To your level earlier, we have executed some due diligence on our facet, and I am going to be sure that we embrace a few of the content material that now we have from a few of the attorneys that we have talked to.

Really, now we have a webinar, and a one-pager from a dialog that we had in early 2024, from David E. Drinker, after which we additionally did one in late 2024, after the AHA lawsuit settlement with Jennifer Plank over at Austin & Hen.

So I am blissful to verify we embrace these as nicely. Do not simply take our phrase for it. You’ll be able to hear from some authorized professionals, their interpretation of the issues that we’re speaking about right here, how these issues apply, and listen to just a little bit extra perhaps about Freshpaint and what it’s that we do and why we slot in and we really feel we’re one of many strongest within the trade as nicely.

Stewart Gandolf

Yeah, I can truly contact on that. Like, what’s, know, with out making it to an advert, clearly, however like, your strategy is, and you understand, why you simply, you understand, minute on that to assist our listeners.

James Corr – Partnerships @ Freshpaint

So, a few issues, blissful to develop on that. in fact, my crew shall be very happy you had been excited to dive into it with anybody who’s extra individually.

However for functions of this, I feel there’s a few issues price noting right here. So I already talked about that we targeted fully on healthcare versus numerous different platforms which can be extra trade agnostic.

So in and of itself, like every part that we do focuses on healthcare and coated entities and the issues and challenges that they face.

So with that in thoughts, there are a pair areas the place we’re totally different than a few of the different issues that you can purpose to perform compliance within the trade.

So primary, I imply, simply desk stakes, design, enterprise affiliate agreements with all of our prospects to gather all of this knowledge.

Quantity two, you are going to take away all of these monitoring applied sciences out of your web site and change it with Freshpaint.

So that you’re now not going to have any of these purple flags that exist in your websites. And we purpose-built the entire server facet integrations or primarily the best way that we ship knowledge to those third events to facilitate the wants of our healthcare entrepreneurs.

So meaning each, you understand, satisfying privateness issues, but additionally ensuring that the information and the best way that we’re delivering that knowledge to the third celebration goes to let you accomplish the targets that you really want.

Because it pertains to say Google Analytics 4, for example, that may be a specific one the place now we have spent numerous time effort and power truly constructing our personal bridge between us and them to make sure that the information that you simply see in GA4, you understand, pre- and post-deployment and Freshpaint, appears to be like nearly equivalent.

There’s actually no drop off between the 2. After which the final two issues that I am going to shortly point out right here, primary is that we strategy every part from what we seek advice from as secure by default strategy.

So even in case you arrange your account and configure every part inside Freshpaint, till you truly decide in and explicitly outline the information that you simply need to share by a visible interface with a 3rd celebration, that is not going to get shared with them.

So there is not any engineering or improvement concerned in that. It is a very marketer and albeit authorized pleasant interface. Our purpose is to take away improvement help or improvement want.

So we don’t strategy issues from a code perspective. It is very low to no code. After which now we have options inside the platform that let you set these issues up simply and perceive them, but additionally keep and confirm that they are working in the best way that you simply had meant.

So it isn’t simply set it up and cross your fingers and hope every part appears to be like good. We’ve the flexibility to confirm and see that knowledge because it flows by the platform.

And you may audit that and get again logs and all that form of good things. The very last thing I am going to point out about Freshpaint is that we have talked loads about right this moment about governing the information between you and a few third celebration.

Along with that, we even have options that exist to assist in different areas because it pertains to affected person privateness. So for example, a few of our prospects are involved about Google Maps and the information that it has entry to when it is embedded in your web site and it is the identical story for YouTube and Vimeo.

So embedded video. So now we have options and merchandise inside our platform that may let you change say Google Maps with Freshpaint Maps and identical story for say Google and YouTube, you possibly can change that with Freshpaint Video.

And something for translations in your web site. And final however not least, we even have options that let you audit the online trackers that exist in your website after which monitor and handle them going ahead.

In order that you do not have to be the one that’s continually checking and guaranteeing that your revenue purchasers.

So primarily the best way I like to explain it’s it is vital to get a deal with on what threat exists right this moment after which maintain that.

However it’s simply as vital that in six months from now a yr from now, 5 years from now, that if one thing had been to alter and your threat modifications in your web site, that one thing is added, maybe you did not learn about it, a accomplice provides it, a vendor provides it, and you’ll not learn about it, however in the end you may be the one held accountable.

We’ve a set of options that enable you handle that, and we’ll warn you if we discover one thing new, so it continually screens these issues in your web site as nicely.

Stewart Gandolf

Okay, superior. Nicely, James, that was loads. Okay, for our viewers, you simply got here away with the massive image, which once more, I’d simply, simply the best way we began, this can be a matter that you simply simply have to turn out to be conscious of, it is actual, it is on the market.

You realize, you may must work along with your council and government crew to, you understand, weigh your choices and, however I’d simply urge you to take it very severely.

There’s loads there about FTC, OCR, class motion lawsuits and state legal guidelines multi function dialog. it is a quagmire. I did not make it this up.

This is not my fault. I promise. I’ve nothing to do with this. we, once more, for our firm, Healthcare Success, we have been, we’re very cautious.

We’ve HIPAA trainings internally. We do work with BAA platforms and we’re all the time ensuring after we discover now we have HIPAA trainings yearly.

We return and overview periodically to verify issues are nonetheless taking place the best path. As a result of it is loads.

It is easy. We’re all human, proper? So anyway, I respect your time, James. That was nice. We’ll in all probability speak once more ultimately of subsequent yr.

However as we sit up for 2025, I feel the best way is fairly clear for the foreseeable future. AHA lawsuit, I feel, was just a little complicated and pause individuals, however now it is sort of like in case you’re this severely, identical to you stated, it is nonetheless a problem.

There is a new administration coming in. I feel it’s going to be fascinating to see how that impacts issues. However once more, I all the time simply really feel like I am taking the insurance coverage path to be secure.

So nice. Good speaking to you.

James Corr – Partnerships @ Freshpaint

Thanks. Superior. Thanks, Stewart.